Anthony Horowitz interview transcript

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Rob Murphy (00:00.182)

Anthony Horowitz, thank you so much for being on Behind the Crimes with Robert Murphy. I struggle to know how to describe you. Is it crime writer, screenwriter, children’s author writer, journalist? What what do you call yourself? ‘Cause that’s a a mouthful.

Anthony Horowitz (00:16.782)

I think there’s an easy answer, Robert, I’m a writer. That’s all I’ve ever been, that’s all I’ve ever wanted to be, and that’s all I am. But I write lots of things.

Rob Murphy (00:24.166)

You do. And well w let’s get into that straight away. Why lots of different things? Because lots of you are extremely successful, but it’s unusual I think for someone to be so successful in lots of different ways.

Anthony Horowitz (00:38.798)

Well, first of all, I never think of myself as successful. I rather worry about that because I’m not quite sure what success is. And I’ve often said that nothing really changes. Maybe, you I spend most of my life sitting in a room and maybe the room has got a bit bigger, but that’s sort of about it. That’s how it sometimes feels anyway. But as to the why, I mean, why so much? so much?

First of all, I love writing. I love storytelling. I love the world of fiction. I love reading books. I love cinema, theater. I love magic. I love illusion. I love all the things that I do for a living are the things that I most love, and there’s nothing else I want to do. Secondly, I’ve always been extremely driven from the day that I started writing, which was when I was 10 years old, was when I first knew I’d be a writer. And that...

was a very unhappy time in my life. I was in a horrible school and I was, you know, not a very nice person and I was quite friendless. And I discovered books and they became a sort of a lifeline for me. First of all, because they took me into a different world because they took me somewhere better, somewhere where I felt safe and happy. But also because they taught me the art of storytelling that I realized I’d been told over and over again that...

that I was useless, that I was fat, that I was going to be, you know, a waste of life. And I discovered actually that my teachers were wrong. I did have a talent and it was for storytelling. And I think that sort of sense of desperation, sense of reaching for a lifeline has never left me. Even now I have, you know, like all writers do, I have bit of imposter syndrome, but it’s more than that. I just feel that if I’m not writing, I’m not living.

Rob Murphy (02:20.492)

Well, I’m gonna go back to your school time in a little while, but we’d I’d like to start off by really asking you about the Marble Hall murderers, which is a huge success, and I’ve never heard this as an excuse or a reason to write a book, and this is the first time I’ve ever heard it, and the reason was because Les Leslie Manville told me to do it.

Anthony Horowitz (02:38.538)

Indeed so. Well, Leslie Manville, who came into my life when we filmed Midsummer Murders, not Midsummer Murders, God, I always get all these literations, when we filmed Magpie Murders. I wrote a book called Magpie Murders. It took me a very, very long time to write it. And we tried to it to the BBC, but they didn’t want to do it. They said the book was unadaptable. That was it was the shortest meeting I’ve ever had. But they just said this book cannot be adapted.

Rob Murphy (02:46.038)

All the murders mixed up. Marble.

Anthony Horowitz (03:03.544)

But working with my wife, Jill Green, I did adapt it and we made it into a TV show. And very early on, Leslie Manville came along and showed interest in the book, agreed to play the main part of Susan Ryan in the editor who solves crimes in that book. And was just a wonderful friend and totally onside, on team. so we made the show and it was adaptable in the end and it did very well.

I had already written Moonflower Murders and the reason for that one, the sequel, it was always meant to be a one-off. But the sequel happened because my wife Jill Green, the producer, said it would be much easier to sell magpie murders around the world if there was a sequel. So I wrote Moonflower Murders, which we then shot again with Leslie. And as you correctly say, we were shooting in Crete after that one. And in Crete, I remember Leslie on set saying to me, you know, I’ve had such a great time. We really must do a third. And...

That was a sort of quite terrifying thought because Leslie is one of the busiest actresses. What do I say? Actress. I’m not sure which word one uses these days. She’s one of the busiest actors in the world. And she had one available slot, which was about 15 months away. And the only way to write a script for her, six scripts, was to write a book first. I couldn’t just write a TV show. I had to have a book to adapt.

So I had 15 months to write both a 650 page novel and a six part TV series. And it was to say the least, a bit of a roller coaster ride. mean, just these books are complicated. They’re big. And I don’t know how quite high I got through the year. But the funny thing is, is that I think of the three, certainly the TV series, which we’ve just finished shooting is.

by a country league, the best of the three. I mean, it’s really, really wonderful. And Leslie is brilliant in it. But I think in some ways it’s my favorite book too. So it just shows you what a bit of pressure.

Rob Murphy (05:07.726)

It is a terrific book and it’s also quite subversive, isn’t it? Because it is the golden age of murder. As firstly, I don’t know how you did it with the first book, how you did it, you know, just the the concept, the conceit of it. But then to repeat it and then to do it one more time, and I think there might even be plans for a fourth one as well. But you know, it’s the golden age of murder turned into a which is a book with the d detective Atticus Pund.

But then it’s also a modern day dual time where the book that you’ve written within the book leads to c gives clues. I’m struggling here.

Anthony Horowitz (05:41.71)

When you listen to this, say, well, that’s one I’m not going to read. It sounds like completely confusing and chaotic. It’s actually simpler than that. It is a story of an editor, Susan Ryland, who works in the field of murder mystery and has created or has been part of a huge series of bestselling novels with a detective called Atticus Put. And the conceit of it is that the author, the original author, Alan Conway, who wrote the Atticus Put novels, was himself murdered.

and the solution to his murder was inside the book he had written. So what you have in all three cases is books that contain the secrets of real life murders. And the joy of the TV series is the collision of these two worlds and indeed of the books. You get both the Golden Age style novel, Marblepool Murders, but you also get Susan Rylan who is a modern woman, an editor, solving a modern crime, the secret of which is concealed in the book. Does that make it sound a little?

I’ve got used to it. When I first did, I have to tell you that Magpie Murders took me something like, I think it was over 10 years to actually work out and to write. And I can prove it because going back to Midsummer Murders, the TV show I was working on, if you look at that in one of the very, very earliest episodes, a character is reading Magpie Murders. I put it into the TV show, as it were, to stake my claim on that title and that book. And then it took a very, very long time to work

how to do it in a way that would be complex and satisfying but never confusing.

Rob Murphy (07:15.98)

Yes. I mean that’s quite a thing to put it i in a T V show to stake your claim, to put the flag in the flag flag on the sand to to say

Anthony Horowitz (07:24.62)

more for myself than for anybody else. was, am going to write this book. It now exists. And having a mock-up of it on TV sort of made it a reality. But I had to wait to do it because I didn’t, at that time, I hadn’t written much adult fiction. And I honestly didn’t think I was good enough to do it. I needed to wait and to work to get better to be able to write that book.

Rob Murphy (07:44.608)

And this project, this whole double project really, is a great example of of your variation of talents. What wha what is the difference between writing the book to writing the sc the screenplay? How would you say it to somebody who who writes neither but just enjoys both?

Anthony Horowitz (08:04.014)

Well, I’ve already said that I couldn’t do the TV show without the book. The main difference is, is that it is impossible actually, as the BBC originally said, to fully adapt 650 pages of Murder Mystery. You have to winner it out. You have to somehow make it a little easier, have fewer stories, fewer red herrings, fewer suspects, and all that sort of stuff. And just somehow focus more on the sort of core story and choose.

What are the sort of B and the C stories? know, writers talk about A stories, the main story, B and C as being sort of subtext, if you like. And so that’s what you have to decide. And that’s why I needed the book with all its complexity in order to have something to winnow down. But there are other differences too. I mean, you know, a simple one is that when you’re reading a book, you do it at your own pace. And if you feel you’re not quite following what’s happening, you can go back and you can check out characters’ names and you can, you know, remind yourself, you know, what happened

the last chapter, TV is, unless you’re watching, you know, with a stop start button, is much more sitting down and watching it from start to finish. And there is a flow, you know, the speed of the storytelling is rather dictated by the creators. So that is a very big difference too. And it just means you always have to think about...

not losing the viewer, of keeping everybody comfortable because these days people have a short attention span. If they’re not following what’s happening, they’re not going to actually wind back or whatever digitally and start again. They’re just going to go and have a cup of tea and do something else.

Rob Murphy (09:33.856)

And as a writer is there the show not tell thing or is there and also I guess the T V project is, you know, you write it and then it moves on to other people as well. You need actors, directors, producers.

Anthony Horowitz (09:47.374)

Of course, I mean, that role in, you know, although I am an executive producer, and I am of course married to the producer, which is very helpful. Joe Green produces these shows for me and does a fantastic job about it. But, you know, when we’re talking about the differences between TV and a novel.

their legion and some of them you’ve just mentioned, know, the sort of, you know, the rules of television. But I actually prefer to think about what makes them similar. And to me, it is about flow. It is about suspense. is about making sure that every chapter finishes with something that makes you want to keep reading just as every episode finishes on a note that makes you want to watch the next one. That sort of sense of always having cliffhangers, having a clarity, immersion of being inside the world. know, the first

TV version of Marble Hall, you’ll be surprised how different it is from the book. Just to give you one example, and this is about money and about sort of what was possible and what wasn’t, the book is largely set in the south of France and I very much wanted that when I started writing it. wanted that

that white linen palm tree David Niven feel to the whole thing. But we couldn’t shoot him with South of France. It’s prohibitively expensive. And also, to be honest with you, it’s not very nice anymore. A lot of the South of France has been spoiled by sort of traffic and high rises. So in the end, we had to move the shoot to Corfu back in Greece again. And that threw out an entire strand of the plot. But nonetheless, you you are presented with what has to happen.

And you adapt, that is part of the nature of writing TV scripts.

Rob Murphy (11:26.764)

One of the big themes of this book, in fact, you know, one of the main stories, is it’s about a literary estate. And of course you’ve got dealings with not one, but two literary estate I think you are the only author who has written both the continuation of James Bond, or prequels as well, and Sherlock Holmes, too.

Anthony Horowitz (11:45.496)

Indeed so. In fact, I remember, I mentioned the pressure I was under to come up with this book and TV scripts in just 15 months. And I remember that in the first month or even six weeks, I was in a state of utter panic because the big question about writing the sort of books I write isn’t who’s going to be murdered or, you know, what are the clues going to be? It is what is the milieu? What am going to write about? What is, you know, the sort of underlying world theme?

general sort of, just the universe of the book. What is it going to be? And I just couldn’t think. At one stage, I was going to set it in an Irish stables, you know, racing stables. I even had this zany idea that it wouldn’t be a person who was murdered, but a horse. Although it’s an interesting fact that although people don’t mind ever reading about dead people in books, if it’s an animal, they get very upset. So that idea went out of the window very quickly. But then walking along with my...

marvelous dog, giver of great ideas. Every writer should have a dog, as I know you do, you have told me. I suddenly realized that family estates, literary estates, was something I knew a lot about. You’ve already mentioned James Bond and Sherlock Holmes, but I’ve also had dealings with the Agatha Christie estate because of my work on Agatha Christie’s Poirot, the role Darl estate I’ve known for many, years, Felicity Darl I see occasionally and admire very much, and even the Herrscher estate, Tintin.

I’ve had dealings with them. You can probably see some tinted memorabilia behind me in the picture of that figure sitting on a Rasco Capac, I think he’s called, out of Prisoners of the Sun. Anyway, and it suddenly occurred to me that literary estates are fascinating. What do do if you are the grandson, the great-grandson, or if it’s just even the son of a famous writer loved by everybody in the world, but you remember that person as being a monster?

And that, course, was how I came up with the idea of Miriam Crace, who is sort of the head of the Crace family and the family that Susan gets involved in the culture of the book. And I just thought it was fascinating to sort of, you you’ve got to keep, you your entire livelihood depends on people continuing to love this, this, she’s the grandmother in the book.

Anthony Horowitz (14:02.36)

But actually, you know that she was horrible and awful. And that tension and that sort of, do I tell, don’t I tell? Do I keep taking the money from the royalties or do I sacrifice them for the truth? That to me seemed like a fascinating world to explore.

Rob Murphy (14:15.894)

Yes. And w tell us about what it was like to get the call from the Sherlock Holmes est was it Sherlock Holmes that came first and Bond? And you you were a fan already. You were a fan of

Anthony Horowitz (14:24.258)

first one.

My agent simply said that they were looking for somebody to do what would be the first, you know, authorized Sherlock Holmes, I hate the word continuation novel, because I think it sort of somehow undermines everything you’re trying to do, but that is what it was. They wanted somebody to write an authorized Sherlock Holmes story. And I was quite nervous when I was asked. And in fact, I remember that I wrote the first chapter.

before I signed the contract, I said, is this good enough? And if it’s good enough, I’ll sign the contract and write the book. So I sent that out and everybody liked it. So I then wrote the book. But I also had a rule, which was I wouldn’t take any notes from anybody in the estate, which may sound to you a little arrogant and such, but I was just nervous about getting tied down in sort of arguments about, you know, Doyle might have wanted or not wanted. And the estate was marvelous. They were very, very supportive. And of course, the House of Silk.

I think perhaps it is my best book in some ways. I think it’s the most polished book I’ve ever written, and I loved writing it. Can you imagine spending six, seven months effectively living in 221B Baker Street with two of the greatest friends in British literature? It was just such a wonderful experience.

Rob Murphy (15:42.51)

I loved it. And to prepare, did you go back and read the books again or what did you

Anthony Horowitz (15:46.734)

I read all the short stories. There’s not a lot to read. I had about 60 short stories and four novellas, which are also quite short. There’s not a lot. But of course, I’d read them since I was 17. I mean, I grew up on Sherlock Holmes and was very, you know, I used to love the Jeremy Brett adaptations, which are still for me the best Sherlock Holmes adaptations. He, I mean, was the best Sherlock Holmes ever. But so, yes, I read, but also I’m very, acquainted with 19th century literature. All my.

favorite reading is in the 19th century. it’s George Gissing, who is late 19th century, almost a contemporary of Doyle, I think, and George Orwell, who might also have crossed paths, H.G. Wells. I have a feeling, I saw a photograph when I was searching of George Gissing, H.G. Wells, and Conan Doyle all together in one picture. And to me, that was like Nirvana because it was three of my greatest favorite writers together in one space. And so it wasn’t difficult to immerse myself in that world.

Rob Murphy (16:40.952)

Did you have to what stylistic changes did you do to to stop being Anthony Horowitz and be a bit more bit more Conan Doyle, or did you?

Anthony Horowitz (16:53.23)

I had to analyze.

I mean, reading the books, I was making notes on the prose all the time about his techniques, about what he did and how the stories work. mean, you know, he does time jumps quite interestingly, which I don’t do in my books where two people are talking and then suddenly they’re in the street. know, suddenly they’ve moved and it’s almost like a cut. And he does a lot of things like that. There were words I used, expressions. know, obviously you get the elementary, my dear Watson type thing, which I’m not sure he actually ever said.

but nonetheless it’s sort of a it’s sort of you know it’s part of that language and I remember that there was a word I particularly loved which was snibbed. A window is described in one of the books as snibbed. To this day I have no idea what I what it means but in my book a window is snibbed as well.

Rob Murphy (17:39.764)

So you did the the Holmes books in twenty eleven and twenty fourteen, but you just after that you picked up with Trigger Mortis and Bond. I mean that is that is pr also, you know, talk about pressure that to to pick up that series, or was it for you?

Anthony Horowitz (17:54.862)

you

Less so because of the success of both The House of Silk and then the sequel to that Mariotti had done well. So was getting, I was growing a little more confident about my ability to ventriloquize. You asked in your earlier question about changing your style for Sherlock Holmes. And it really is a question of becoming the ventriloquist or maybe the dummy, rather, in, you being controlled by the voice of Doyle. And Fleming, of course, has also got a remarkable voice. I mean, I think the books are underrated.

People know the films and sort of everybody in the world. think it’s half the world’s population has seen the James Bond film. But not many people read the books, which is a shame because they are masterpieces. They really are.

Rob Murphy (18:36.622)

Th the early ones in particular are, aren’t they? The later ones I I’m not so sure.

Anthony Horowitz (18:40.718)

I mean, it’s clear that Fleming gets bored of the character and he’s looking for ways to break the formula. And so, for example, he writes A Spy Who Loved Me, which is a catastrophe. You Only Live Twice is peculiar, although very good in parts. And he was quite ill when he was writing the last book, The Man with the Golden Gun. And you can tell from the text, from reading it, that he’s getting, you know, he’s bored, he’s tired of it. But the earlier ones, I mean, you know, there are six or seven wonderful James Bond novels.

Anthony Horowitz (19:13.068)

also quite peculiar and not really sort of mainstream bond which is I think it’s Dr. No and it’s Goldfinger from Russia with Love and Live and Let Die, Diamonds are Forever, that exact core of sort of you know the super villain and the sort of and the international trail. Moonraker I adore, that’s not international.

Rob Murphy (19:32.478)

Yeah, that’s setting paint, isn’t it? Yeah. Yeah.

Anthony Horowitz (19:35.566)

But those are the of the hardcore James Bond novels. And, you know, when it came to Bond, I had been waiting and waiting for them to ask me. I adored Bond as a child, the films and the books, and along with Holmes. I wouldn’t have done these novels if it hadn’t been for the fact that I loved the originals so much that I just wanted to live in their worlds.

Rob Murphy (19:58.732)

And you wrote them in the world, isn’t there? There was a prequel, there was one that’s kind of midway through the series or the end and another at the end. Is that right with the bond?

Anthony Horowitz (20:06.542)

I mean, I’m not criticizing anybody who didn’t do this because there were other very good James White. I mean, Robert Markham, think that is probably the best of the continuation of his. Robert Markham is the pseudonym of Kingsley Amis, who wrote a book called Colonel’s Son, which I think is a terrific bond, pastiche continuation, whatever. But what was your question? can’t remember what you asked me.

Rob Murphy (20:28.02)

you set them at the time rather than updating them to present time.

Anthony Horowitz (20:31.278)

I, some writers, William Boyd, for example, and Jeffrey Diva modernized the books and had them in a different era. But I always thought that Bond was very, very much tied to the time in which he lived. So my first, although I didn’t write them in this order, I go from sort of mid-50s to about 1963, which is sort of the first book, Trigga Mortis, takes place just after Goldfinger has finished. And the last one I wrote, The With a Mind to Kill.

is after or just immediately after the man with the golden gun. in the end, I ended up with a trilogy of beginning, middle and end of career.

Rob Murphy (21:06.06)

Yes. And you s you mentioned that you read these growing up. I’d just like to ask a a few questions about you growing up because you’ve described your your background as upper middle class North London. Is that is that the best

Anthony Horowitz (21:17.858)

I used the words upper middle class because it was more peculiar than that. mean, my parents, I think, were trying to have a sort of miniature Versailles in a North London suburb. And it was really sort of quite upper class, except it wasn’t. And I find class distinction sort of tricky and perhaps a little archaic now. But it was definitely North London. It was Jewish North London. Peculiar.

Rob Murphy (21:45.15)

And you went to a a prep school which was tough w for one

Anthony Horowitz (21:49.606)

Well, you again, Robert, I always get nervous about complaining too much about, you know, I had a privileged upbringing, no doubt about it, but the five years I spent in a school in North London were utterly and completely destructive in almost every way. And as I’ve said to you at the beginning of our discussion, I only survived those five years and came out as a reasonable human being because of books. Comics first, you know, just from Valiant to Tintin to Willard Price to...

to Alistair McLean and Desmond Bagley and Ian Fleming and Conan Doyle. You know, those books were my protection.

Rob Murphy (22:26.092)

You mentioned Willard Price there. You’re the the only other person I think I’ve come across who’s read that I I I consumed them in hours at a time. Underwater Adventure, Safari Adventure. There was I think fourteen of them and I loved those as a boy. But I d they’re not talked about.

Anthony Horowitz (22:41.337)

And this is very much in forms of where I write. I can remember waiting in the library for the new Willard Price to come in because they bought them every year and it would arrive and nobody was going to come in week or two. And you had to your name on a list to get the burrow of the book and my name would always be number one. And that excitement about waiting for the next adventure of Howe and Roger, the two brothers going off around the world, that sense of neediness of I’ve got to read it. I try to inject that into my writing. want, you know, when I was writing the Alex Rider series.

I always wanted kids to really want the next one.

Rob Murphy (23:14.368)

so after school you there was university, but you didn’t go straight into writing as most writers don’t. you went into advertising. W

Anthony Horowitz (23:22.798)

I writing immediately after I left. I was writing all through school. I was writing throughout university, drama and novels. I had rejections and, you know, and such. But I actually was published quite quickly. My first book, which was a children’s book, was published almost immediately after I left university. I was only 22 years old. And.

Rob Murphy (23:50.306)

Sorry? Was that Granny?

Anthony Horowitz (23:53.854)

Actually, it was a book called Enter Frederick K. Boer. It’s before Granny, a little bit before Granny. One of the few of my books that has gone out of print, curiously. But that was the first book I wrote. Granny was, I think, about the third or fourth.

And the books never did very well in Sydney, and I was very, fortunate to have a publisher who continued to support me and to publish me. But I was working in advertising because my books weren’t making enough money not to be. I was a copywriter, and the only good thing that came out of it was meeting my wife, who was the account director at McCann Ericsson, where I was working. I wasn’t a very good copywriter, but the building gave me everything I needed, and what I would do is I would, I would.

work on advertising from nine until six. I would go out with Jill for supper at seven, dump her at the station about 8.39, go back to the office and then work on my novels through the night. what I had there was an electric golf ball IBM typewriter. You may remember them, you know, with that little, it had a little ball in the middle with all the letters on it. It’s spanned around every time you press the key.

Rob Murphy (24:56.386)

Wow, okay.

Anthony Horowitz (24:57.32)

It was a marvelous machine. I was actually doing, I was writing also the, while I was advertising, I was also writing scripts and things. But I remember that I was doing all the functions that a computer does, cutting and pasting and whatever. But I was doing it by hand, literally cutting and literally pasting sections of the script together and then photocopying the whole thing in order to build a page. And I would work through the night.

and then sleep in my office from about sort of two or three in the morning until it was time to get up, have a shower in the office, and then go back to my desk. Not every night of the week, but often. Wow.

Rob Murphy (25:32.795)

I mean that is driven, isn’t it? And you said

Anthony Horowitz (25:35.318)

You talked about this in the beginning and yes, I was absolutely determined to succeed.

Rob Murphy (25:40.96)

And how long did the two overlap, the advertising and the writing?

Anthony Horowitz (25:47.566)

would say about all in, maybe 10 years, something like that, from different agencies. It was a long haul. And eventually what happened was when I was hired to do Robin of Sherwood, which was my first ever television program, I was...

Rob Murphy (25:53.602)

Good while. A good long while.

Anthony Horowitz (26:09.236)

suddenly earning more money from my writing than from advertising and realized I didn’t need to be doing this sort of really quite strenuous double life and that I could let one go. I did so with reluctance. I loved advertising. loved it. It was some of my closest friends to this day I made in that period. Jill obviously is top of that list. And...

It took me a very, very long time to get used to being on my own, to being in a room, to being out on the street at 11 o’clock in the morning and not feeling that I was some kind of social security scrangler, as I would be called now, whatever.

Rob Murphy (26:43.614)

so so you gave up the advertising. You’d written a book, hadn’t you, which led to the TV job, the Robinham Show.

Anthony Horowitz (26:51.898)

I had written quite a lot of books by the time I left advertising, maybe about 10. This is pre-Alex Ryder. Alex Ryder was what broke the glass ceiling and sort of launched me. But I’d written at least 10 kids books during that period. And one of them was a collection of myths and legends.

I remember that I was doing Greek myths, obviously, and Roman and Egyptian and Babylonian and Persian or whatever, myths from all over the world. I wrote it largely when I had glandular fever. It was a commission. And I was ill in bed for a month and spent that entire month writing the myths and legends. And one of them was Robin Hood. In fact, I didn’t write about Robin Hood. I wrote about a man called Adam Bead. I think that’s correctly his name. I can’t remember his name. Adam Bead? can’t...

I’d have to go back and write it so long ago. But anyway, he is sort of a precursor of Robin Hood. And I was interested in the fact that Robin Hood, there are many different versions. Adam Bell, not Bede. Adam Bell, that was his name. And at the same time, Goldcrest, the company making Robin of Sherwood, had a problem, which is that they had suddenly been commissioned to write 13 episodes. They only had one writer and they needed desperately somebody to come and help. So I sent them a short...

story, of, you know, a treatment of Adam Bell. And it was Adam Bell meets Robin Hood. So was like sort of Robin Hood meets his own precursor, his own ancestor. And they liked it enough to get me in and hired me. And it was an incredible thing to go from never having written television at all to being a junior writer on a show that was attracting 12 to 15 million people every week.

Rob Murphy (28:31.688)

It was the biggest show in Britain, wasn’t it? It was it was huge. And but but you’ve gone from working in an office in advertising while writing books on the side to suddenly being, I guess, on set working at a pace as well. Just describe the leap from from one to the other.

Anthony Horowitz (28:34.744)

Amazing show.

Anthony Horowitz (28:49.762)

Well, first of I have to pay tribute to the producer, Paul Knight, who hired me. And nobody else would have. mean, because, you know, I was just so ignorant of everything. I’ll tell you a story. The first time I ever visited the set of Robin Hood, I’d written an Adam Bell, which finishes at a ruined church in a field where the sheriff in Nottingham has set an ambush for Robin Hood. And he’s got soldiers hiding. I described very carefully a window upstairs. There’s somebody hiding there with a bow and arrow. And there’s somebody in this section there. I visit the set.

and I’ve never been on a film set before. And there, in front of me, is the church I’ve described. Everything that I wrote is in there. It’s got a... The window is there and the archway and the place where someone else is gonna hide. And I’m just looking at it, saying, how did you find this? It’s incredible. And, of course, I then walked up to the church and touched it. It was made out of fiberglass. It was... The whole thing had been... I didn’t realize that that was how films work. That’s how stupid I was and how...

ignorant of that world. But what it was like to ask you to answer it was, it’s a bit sad in a way because I’ve done a lot of television now, but I’m not sure I’ve ever had quite so much fun as I’ve had on that. First of all, Paul Knight was a wonderful producer. But he was a party giver. Everybody on that set was drinking until two or three in the morning sometimes. It was just sort of madness. A weekend when he was on the set was a nonstop party with Ray Winston, famously the wonderful Ray Winston as well as Scarlett.

who was just sort of a, he was a madman in a way. I use the phrase as a compliment, not as an insult. But he was a wonderful.

actor and a bit of marvelous character as well, as were all the Merry Men and everybody on the set. Richard Carpenter, the senior writer, was the other person I wanted to pay tribute to. I learned so much about TV writing from him. He was just a wonderful mentor and a guide to me. In the same way, funnily enough, as Conan Doyle was when I was writing Sherlock Holmes, he was the living embodiment of that when I was writing Robin. And his vision was really remarkable. It was terrific. I still think it is one of the greatest...

Anthony Horowitz (30:50.094)

versions of Robin Hood ever done, the idea of bringing in pagan mythology and, you know, her and the hunter and all the rest of it. It was extraordinary, but it was enormously high pressure. Unlike a modern TV show where you could wait a year and a half for production, you know, on that show I would be writing a script on Friday.

for the start of shooting, actual shooting the following Monday. It would be, you know, obviously they knew what I was doing. They were building sets and getting my notes of what the story involved, but it was that fast, that scary. it was enormously high pressure, but wonderful fun.

Rob Murphy (31:27.662)

And those were the Jason Connery days, weren’t they?

Anthony Horowitz (31:30.232)

Yes, and Michael Prade was the original Robin, but he had, I think, mistakenly, I think, decided to leave the show for other things. And Richard Carpenter had to, and very cleverly instead, he worked out...

where the new Robin would come from and wrote a wonderful story about how a new, a more noble figure, young nobleman played by Jason takes his place. But of course, in those days, nobody knew what Robin Hood would have looked like. it wasn’t like James Bond where you can just, or Doctor Who, where you could just transform the character. This was an actual story about another person taking over the role.

Rob Murphy (32:08.406)

And with that pressure, with that change, with that that swap from advertising to that, what what what did you learn? What were your key takeaways? What w you know, you must have been learning so fast and having to think on your on your feet.

Anthony Horowitz (32:20.546)

think it was a slow lesson. think in a way I’m still learning. mean, know, television is changing the whole time and what audiences want now is very different from what they were wanting then. But I think that at the end of the day, this idea of, don’t think, again, forgive me for answering it in a different way, but I think it was the same is what I remember, but it wasn’t different, you know, storytelling. What makes people engage with...

narrative, with character, with ideas, with landscapes, is story. And story binds us together in life as well. You know, we began before we had this interview with a little bit of story about each other and where we’ve come from, and very quickly established a sort of a, I hope, a sort of rapport, which is helping us through the interview now. And story, that’s why, you when people talk about the value of reading and the importance, this is meant to be the year of reading and all that, I think in a funny way, they’re missing the point. You know,

Reading, yes, it is good for you. It’s good for communication skills. It helps you with language and confidence, and it’s a wonderful way to relax or to, not actually to relax, because reading is one of the most creative things you can do with your mind. But I think what people ignore is actually without story, you are lost in life. Story unites us all. Well, you know, what is happening in Ukraine, what is happening in America, what is happening in all over the world, these are stories. And one of the things that I’ve learned in my long

is that my books are in 20-odd countries and story unites people no matter where they’ve come from, whether rich, poor, or from, you know, from the south, from the north, whatever. Story has this incredible value to humanity and that’s what partly drives me and it’s why I’m involved in trying to get people to read, I mean, because that’s really what you’re getting from it.

Rob Murphy (34:11.201)

So I’m gonna come back to your books in a second, but I think we do really need to to mention your your continuation of your screenwriting work after after Robin because it’s again so so prolific, you know, Midsummer Murders, Poirot, you know, you invented Foil’s War for God’s sake. You this is this is big stuff, good stuff, and atmospheric as well. You know, Foil’s War is a really you know, you plonk the reader back into nineteen the viewer back into nineteen forty. What just tell us about what it was. I mean the

These are all crime as well. Were you a were you enticed by the crime or were they jobs that came up and you just gently gravitated towards it?

Anthony Horowitz (34:51.362)

I’ve always liked crime. You know, I’m a disciple of Agatha Christie and of Sherlock Holmes and of Nagai Amarsh and Dorothy Sayers and SS Van Dyne and Ellery Queen, et cetera. These are the books I’ve read throughout my life. But at the same time, crime can become a straight jacket. And when you describe Foils War as a crime series, it wasn’t actually. You know, I didn’t really want to write crimes set in the Second World War.

I wanted to write about the Second World War, the home front. I was born in Stanmore in North London and my house was right next door to sort of the headquarters of the RAF, which is up there. And we had bomber command not very far away. You could say that, you know, a large part of the war was won in Stanmore. My nanny was...

a waft driver in the war and used to tell me when I was a boy stories. was born with 55. So, you know, I’m born in the shadow of the war, rationing at the end of the year before I was born. And he used to tell me all these stories about the home front in the war. And I was fascinated by it and wanted to do a series about it and realized that the way to tell stories about the war was to do it as a crime series. But the whole paradox of Foyle’s War is that the main detective, Christopher Foyle,

doesn’t want to be solving crimes. He wants to be working for the war effort and he’s trying to, and the stories that we tell, you yes, I mean, the crime stories are good and well-conceived and fun, but often you have to wait two or three parts of the show, maybe 45, 50 minutes before anybody is murdered. You know, it’s about other things. And there’s one of favorite episodes, the French drop, doesn’t even have a crime in it at all.

You know, it’s about different things. And that’s what really fascinated me. And throughout my whole writing career, I’ve been trying to find ways to do crime differently, to do, to not be forced into the sort of the formula of here’s a murder, here’s a detective, here’s the investigation, and there’s a solution. Trying to do things that haven’t been done before.

Rob Murphy (36:54.112)

Yeah, I’m and that goes back to what we said at the beginning of the the marble that is

Anthony Horowitz (36:57.826)

That’s definitely a... Metafiction, which I’m sort of becoming more more interested in, is a wonderful way to both write murder mystery and also question it and look at it. You know, the question I most like to ask is, why is murder entertainment? Why do so many people like reading about murder? If somebody is murdered in your street or your community or even in the house where you live, you will not...

be laughing about it and enjoying it, you’ll be horrified and disgusted. And also, of course, the police will solve it properly within 24 hours because most murders are solved by CCTV, by a blood splatter, by people just actually fessing up because, you know, if you’re sitting in a room with a knife that’s got blood all over it and your wife is lying under the table, it’s not exactly, you don’t exactly need her, you’re poor-o. So I’m fascinated by the difference between murder in fiction and the need for it and murder in real life.

Rob Murphy (37:52.31)

What do you think is the intrigue? Why do you think people are so drawn to it?

Anthony Horowitz (37:59.214)

think that murder, people are not drawn to murder itself, I don’t think, even to the midsummer murders where they spend so much time doing elaborate and slightly sort of grotesque murders. I think murder is a very, very fast way to become interested in people. Murder unites people in a rather difficult way, but it’s in a way when emotions are at their highest and when, you know, you don’t murder somebody because you are a little bit scared of them or because you don’t like them very much.

You’re terrified of them, you fear them, you hate them, you love them, you want them, you need them, whatever. And that leads you to a state where you might commit a murder. So I think that it takes us into humanity in a very fast, very direct and very passionate way. And that I think is, and it also of course tears apart secrets. What I think is great about a murder story is it’s not just the killer who has something to hide, everybody in that community.

has something to hide. And we live in a society where the British like to have their neck curtains. We like to keep our family secrets to ourselves. Murder, tears, all that open. I think there’s a certain relish in learning the truth about people.

Rob Murphy (39:04.618)

And you have done it brilliantly again and again. Who do you look to at the moment? Or over a the course of last hundred and fifty years who has taken crime writing and done something different with it and done it really well?

Anthony Horowitz (39:20.44)

There are lots of Japanese crime writers that I admire. I love Golden Age Murder Mystery. There are a lot of modern writers from, I don’t know, Ragana Yonason, who is an Icelandic writer whose work I like very much, to, don’t know, there’s so many different, so many different Val McDermid, obviously, in Rankin. you know, there are lot. I don’t read exclusively crime fiction. You know, my favorite crime writer is probably Iro Levin, by the way, is,

Rob Murphy (39:45.504)

Stepford Wives, Boys from Brazil. Well actually I Kiss Before Dying, which he wrote when he was tw twenty-two, I think.

Anthony Horowitz (39:49.048)

thinking more.

Anthony Horowitz (39:55.234)

He wrote it when he was 22. That’s absolutely correct. It’s absolutely shocking how good it is for a writer so young. But he was absolutely wonderful. I heard they’re making The Boys from Brazil for TV at the moment. Somebody’s doing a five-part series.

Rob Murphy (40:06.846)

He is one of my favourite writers as well. I I read I think three books in three days. and they’re short as well. Step for Wives is a hundred and twenty two pages, I think. It’s but if you look

Anthony Horowitz (40:15.754)

The Structure of is so astoundingly clever. And it’s one of the reasons I don’t write crime, don’t read a lot of stories because you come upon ideas in that book that I wish I’d had, or rather I come upon ideas that I wish I’d had. And it’s awful to read somebody else’s book and say, God, how could they be so clever? I wish I’d thought of that. So, but you know, as I’ve said, I love 19th century literature. I love all sorts of books. And of course I read an enormous amount for research. So,

My reading time is quite limited and I don’t want to be sitting there reading books that make me cry.

Rob Murphy (40:49.774)

No, and you say research there, I mean there’s a a bit of a tension with crime writing, isn’t there, about projecting a story that people are going to be interested in, but also having the authority that it’s the kind of story that might have actually really happened. So are there any sort of true crime stories or what kind of research do you do in terms of procedure, to to try and you know, to make sure it it can be have the authenticity that it needs?

Anthony Horowitz (41:19.992)

Well, I tend to avoid procedural crime. I leave that to people like your good self, who are the of the experts in that field. Because it’s just, it’s not what I’m interested in. What I’m interested in is sort of the more Edwardian detective in an armchair sort of thing. I like the idea of the reader and the detective travel through the novel side by side. When I was working on the very first episodes of Midsummer Murders, I remember saying, we must never see anybody in a white coat.

We don’t want forensics. Please structure and command. We had a bit of that in Follows War, but it was very background. I wanted Barnaby and Troy to solve crimes with the audience. Now I think they do have a forensic team that comes into it, but then I haven’t been working on that show for 20 years and I haven’t even seen an episode for a while. But to me, that’s what I’m after. I’m after intellectual puzzles rather than...

Rob Murphy (41:51.874)

We don’t want

Anthony Horowitz (42:19.586)

forensics and stuff. But that said, everything I put into my books, I do research. mean, I have an interesting relationship with chat GBT at the moment because it is, the one hand, the greatest gift any writer was given because I can find out the answer to anything instantly and I can get, you know, can get paragraphs about whatever it is I’m interested in, but at the same time, it is the devil.

because it’s making me lazy and it makes me less inquisitive and it makes me less open to new ideas. It just tells me what it thinks I want to know. So chat GBT is both a friend and an enemy. I presume you must use it quite a lot in your way.

Rob Murphy (42:57.58)

Yeah, I do. are are there are are there any crimes or criminals or victims or stories that you read that have inspired your work or you thought, well actually that that could happen and I could do with something like that here.

Anthony Horowitz (43:11.81)

yes, I often, I can’t actually for the moment think of exact instances, but I’ll often look up online types of crime that I will then incorporate into my novels because, you one of the things I’m most interested in is why people commit crimes and the sorts of crimes that people commit. And I think, you know, you’ve got to always have a belief in the crime that is being presented. You know, somebody murders somebody else for a reason.

And if that reason is too silly, too convoluted, too unbelievable, I think it damages the book. So I will often look up, you know, why, you know, crimes and frauds of one sort or another. You know, in Marble Hall Murders, for example, the book of Marble Hall Murders, there is a whole thread about the theft of Impressionist paintings in the Second World War.

by the Nazis who then had basically marketplaces in Europe. I think it was in the Gilles de Paule in Paris, became a giant sort of warehouse for buying stolen art, stolen from the Jews. And then there’s a whole question of reparations of art and the Swiss law, which was very, very pro-Swiss and against the Jews and against theft and such. didn’t, against justice, I mean. And.

And that knowledge, having read about that and read two or three books about that, for Fall as War, instead, I would read five books sometimes for one episode of Fall as War to look at the of the reality of the world. But talking about Marvel who murders, knowing that and having that layer of authority in the book adds a sort of an anchor, a credence, a base to the slightly fantastical story that I’m telling.

Rob Murphy (44:50.978)

And we can’t do an episode without mentioning Alex Ryder, if only to to keep my my younger son happy as well, who’s a massive fan. So I mean just how life changing was that? I the first book came out in two thousand, so I guess you’d been writing books and screenplays at the same time. But then came this this what became was it a juggernaut in your life? I don’t know.

Anthony Horowitz (45:11.584)

It became, yes, it certainly became something of a sort of a, you know, a roller coaster ride. And it was extraordinary. mean, I had written, I think, 10 children’s books. I still wonder why I was writing children’s books. wasn’t that far away from being a child. you know, I was very young. And none of them had sold very well, 2,000 copies, 3,000 copies. No other publisher today would.

continue to publish a writer at that level. But I was very, fortunate that Walker Books, who were my publishers, were endlessly patient. And then Stormbreaker came out in, think, about 2001. And I knew it was different. I mean, I still remember writing the very first sentence of it, when the doorbell rings at three in the morning, it’s never good news. And I looked at that sentence. I was living in Crouch End, and I can still see myself at my desk. It’s the same desk I’m sitting at now, which has traveled with me to Richmond.

and looking at that and knowing that this book was going to be different, that I’d come upon an idea that was signally different. And what the difference was, it was just going to be a children’s book for adults. No, an adult book for children. It was going to be a children’s book in which it wasn’t just a jape and an adventure and where the main character was having fun. It was going to have a troubled main character who didn’t really want to be in the adventure, someone who just wanted an ordinary life. That sentence I’ve just said to you.

has a darkness matter and the door rings at three in the morning, it’s never good news. What’s happened? What has happened? Well, I’ll tell you what had happened for me. It was at three o’clock in the morning when the telephone rang from the hospital to tell me that my father had died. And so that sort of darkness and that sense of reality was going to be in this book. And Stormbreaker, although it is still a fantastical story, it is quite light on its feet, was different and partly because of the success of Harry Potter, which had given publishers

greater interest in children’s books and newspapers and the public. It did much better. It sold 25,000 copies. And so I wrote another one, the sequel. In fact, I had already started writing it before Stormbreaker was published. Point blank sold 50,000 copies. I remember the next one sold 100,000 copies. And it just kept on escalating and doubling and mounting until suddenly I had sold something like 20 million copies. And it was the adventure of my life.

Rob Murphy (47:39.394)

And now you’re also writing books for adult fiction which feature loosely and lightly yourself. and there’s one coming out soon.

Anthony Horowitz (47:48.846)

I do need to say, first of all, I decided to stop writing children’s books a few years ago because I feel I’m too far away now from children because of my age. It’s one of the few professions where every year your audience is further away from you. And also, I have this sort of slightly silly idea that the children I’d written for back in the years, so 2000 onwards, I wanted to continue writing for them, even though they’re now adult. So that meant writing adult fiction. And again, this is about metafiction.

I was asked by my new publisher, Penguin Random House, to come up with a series of detective stories. And so I began to think of who is a detective? Is he sort of fat, thin, black, white, tall, short, gay, straight, male, female, whatever. And suddenly realized that everything you could possibly do with a detective had been done. So I began to think about the sidekick. And I this idea that if I turned myself into Watson, and so I’m not Doyle outside the book.

I’m Watson inside the book, the narrator, the detective’s sidekick. I’ve turned everything on its head. Suddenly, instead of being omniscient and knowing who the killer is, even more who the killer does, knows who he is or she is, I’m suddenly this sort of not very clever sort of sidekick. I don’t even know what to write. And if a detective, Hawthorne, doesn’t solve the crime, I don’t have a book. And suddenly, everything changes. I realize.

This was a way to turn the whole formula of murder mystery on its head. And so the word is murder was the first and I’ve just finished the seventh one.

Rob Murphy (49:24.502)

Is the seventh episode?

Anthony Horowitz (49:28.462)

The only episode that comes out in April, May, God, I’m very good at self publicity, I? I can’t even remember the title or the publication date. My publishers will be delighted. And I’ve started the seventh one. I was actually writing the seventh one this morning.

Rob Murphy (49:41.708)

Yeah. So you’ve got plans for this to go to run, haven’t you?

Anthony Horowitz (49:44.238)

I’m thinking of doing, we’re also developing it as a TV series. Jill and I have just finished the script of the, first script of the word is murder. You know, watch this space. It’s not easy these days to get television made, but I have high hopes. And I was thinking it would be 12 books in the series. So I’m over halfway. It might just be 10 now. I don’t know. But yeah, certainly three more to go.

Rob Murphy (50:09.272)

So if we have and we do have lots of writers and writers at the beginning of their career listen to this show, what w what would your message to them be? What would what what advice

Anthony Horowitz (50:21.658)

I’m always nervous about giving anybody advice because really what do I know? But I think that what I’ve said to you and talked about will have had echoes with writers. know, every writer goes through the same rite of passage, unless you’re very lucky and your first book is a huge smash hit, is, you know, getting published, then realizing once you’re published that actually you haven’t done the journey, you’re still standing on the platform, as it were, although at least you’re in the station. And, then realizing that people like me get invited onto podcasts by people like you, but they don’t.

and publicity. You you’re going to get publicity as a writer when you don’t need it anymore. That’s one of the sort of strange anomalies about the whole world of publishing because, you know, the books are selling anyway now. So I guess the only advice I can give is to believe in yourself. That’s all I’ve ever had in my life is self-belief, the knowledge or the determination.

that I will succeed as a writer. And the other thing is to enjoy writing. I think that that’s something that people seem to forget that I love everything about writing. I love fountain pens. I love paper. I love ink on my fingers. I love thinking up ideas and scribbling down notes and drawings. you know, I have lovely notebook which I keep which are full of my ideas. You this here is beginnings of my next novel just starting.

Rob Murphy (51:39.618)

Got neat handwriting.

Anthony Horowitz (51:41.25)

Hopefully when it won’t, no, that page doesn’t give anything away, thank goodness. it’s, and you know, getting out and not sitting at a desk worrying and fretting about writing, but having fun and having adventure and traveling and meeting people and you know, writing is not about being on yourself in a room. is about getting out there, believing in yourself and enjoying it. That’s the only advice I can give.

Rob Murphy (52:06.07)

Anthony Horowitz. I hope I’ve thoroughly enjoyed speaking to you for the last hour and I’ve thoroughly enjoyed your books as well. So thank you so much indeed.

Anthony Horowitz (52:13.55)

real pleasure, Robert. Thank you for having me on your podcast.